Tuesday, November 6, 2012

Creatures, combat and spells

Now for some game design details for Chaos Reborn. As I explained previously, I want to keep the essence of the original game with a few tweaks, so here are some of my intentions for the core game systems.

Creatures

The stats for creatures will be the same as before, but the underlying mechanics will be different.

Combat

In the original Chaos a random number from 0-10 was added to combat, and also to defence and then compared to see if the combat value exceeded the defence value. This was based on my original board game version, which used dice rolls added to combat and defence. However, it meant that judging probabilities was a bit obscure. In Chaos Reborn, the probability of killing a target creature is determined by a simple odds comparison of combat value to defence value. For example, a creature with a combat of 6 attacking a creature with a defence of 2 will have a 6 to 2 odds, or 75% chance of killing the target. The same rules will apply to ranged combat.

Engagement

Creatures become 'engaged' when they move next to an enemy. They could also remain engaged after being selected while next to an enemy. This will depend on a random probability determined by creatures manoeuvre ratings. The probability of breaking free will be an odds comparison of the selected creatures manoeuvre rating and the combined manoeuvre ratings of all surrounding creatures. Generally, the more surrounded a creature is, the less likely it can break free, but some creatures will be a lot more agile than others.

Magic Resistance

Magic resistance is the ability to resist certain spells and spell effects. The probability of a spell being effective is based on the odds of spell power compared to magic resistance. This means that some spells, like the magical attacks, will have a spell power rating.

Movement

Movement will now take place on a hexagonal grid, so there will be no need to account for diagonal movement on a square grid. I also propose to divide the movement value into two components:
  • Move and attack range - the distance a creature may move and also attack
  • Maximum movement range - the distance a creature can move, but not be allowed to attack
Thus, big creatures with heavy attacks, or ranged creatures which require careful aiming, may have a relatively short move and attack range. Some creatures, such as the Unicorn, maybe especially good at charging into attack and may have a relatively high move and attack range. Flying creatures will also have some of there immense advantage reduced by having low move and attack ranges, despite a big flying range. Furthermore, flying creatures will have to land next to a creature to attack it.

Special attributes

Creatures may have a number of special attributes or abilities. Here is a non-exhaustive list
  • Undead - can only be killed by other under undead, magic weapons or spells.
  • Flying - can 'hop' over intervening terrain and creatures, but must land to attack.
  • Mount - can be ridden by wizards. Mounts are always attacked instead of the wizard.
  • Magical - the creature attacks with combat vs magic resistance instead of defence
  • Charger - Gets a combat bonus when attacking immediately after movement
  • Soul leech - Some creatures, like Vampires, may gain a combat bonus each time they slay another creature (this was in the original board game version of Chaos).
There may be some other interesting attributes, so I am open to suggestions.

Spells

The spell casting system will work in much the same way, as follows:
  • Each wizard has a list of spells
  • Wizards can cast one spell per turn
  • Spells are 'used up' when cast
  • Each spell has a casting chance, and failed spells have no effect
  • Creatures can be cast as illusions
  • Illusions can be dispelled by casting the disbelieve spell, which is always available
  • Chaos spells shift the balance of the universe towards chaos, making chaos spells easier to cast - and law spells shift the balance to law, making them easier to cast
Here are some differences I am proposing:
  • I am not convinced for the need to have a special spell selection and casting phase. It may have worked well when playing multiplayer games around one screen, but is somewhat redundant with network play. Instead wizards can cast a spell instead of attack (i.e. they can only cast a spell when moving within the move-and-attack range). I suspect this idea might be controversial with existing Chaos fans.
  • Although spells will be randomly assigned, each spell will have a random weighting so that some spells may be more common than others. This will be use to achieve a generally better balance of spells in random combats.
  • Law and Chaos effects will be finer grained, with 2-5% shifts for each spell cast.

States of total law and chaos

If the balance shifts too far in one direction the game will enter a state of total chaos or total law. This has several effects:
  • The balance can no longer be shifted the other way
  • The terrain is transformed into a law or chaos state, with appropriate visual effects. Law terrain will look somewhat frosty and crystallised, and chaos terrain will be organic, decayed and mutated.
  • Creatures whose alignment matches the state will have a combat bonus, and creatures with the opposite alignment will have a defence penalty. Neutral creatures and wizards are unaffected.



69 comments:

  1. I love the idea of a total law/chaos state with matching environment :)

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    1. This idea was actually destined for 'Magic & Mayhem' but the art team didn't feel up to it.

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  2. "Flying must land to attack" I'm not sure about this. where does this leave a bat? Attack 1, Defence 1. Its attack probably won't work, and it will be killed the next turn. Its the flying attack that makes it work. The same for the eagle.

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    1. But isn't that part of a bat's tactics, to provide aerial scouting rather than engage in actual combat?

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    2. There isn't any scouting. When Magic and Mayhem was released, there was a tactic called 'Bat Bothering'. If the bat has to directly put itself in danger now to attack, its not such a bother. The same for eagle.

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    4. I think having to land in order to attack will be quite damaging to flying units. As the OP stated, Bats and Eagles will be much less effective. Also, whenever I managed to cast Magic Wings I would use my wizard against other wizards and isolated creatures, knowing that I had nothing to lose. Either I killed them or I would be left where I started, too far for them to hurt me. Often I would also use blitzkrieg tactics, flying over creatures engaged against each other to attack a wizard standing behind them.

      I can also think of cases when a wizard is surrounded from all sides, say by Walls and creatures he cast. If there are no empty spaces next to him for a flying creature to land, if ranged attacks are blocked and if no other wizards have magic attacks like Justice or Dark Power, he becomes impossible to kill. A wizard can cast a Wall around him, create a couple of Orcs or Bats to fill the empty spaces and that's it. There can be 20 Golden Dragons and Vampires outside the walls and it won't matter, since they can't land inside to attack anyone.

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    5. What do you mean no scouting? A bat could always fly high, cover long distances and see what was out of your other creatures' line of sight - so it's use was primarily to explore and see where things (enemies, ingredients) were, before your other creatures went in to collect or engage.

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    6. Oh, scouting as in LoC and M&M. Yes in that case. But please no lines of sight in Chaos.

      Rufferto pins exactly with the walls problem why flying creatures shouldn't land to attachk

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    7. There will be no impregnable walls - they will be replaced by 'tangle vine' (attackable, but tough). Nothing will be completely safe from anything. There will also be more spells for attacking over range, including some from Magic & Mayhem, like chain lightning, comet hail. Also, there will be more spells which affect creature behaviour or cause them to move in some way. The bat and eagle may well have some stat tweaks.

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    8. Tangle Vine instead of Wall sounds like a pretty good idea. But since you say nothing will be completely safe from anything, does that mean no more Magic Castles and Dark Citadels? I remember playing many games where an AI wizard would just stay inside one until all turns were completed and a draw was declared.

      Also, what about Magic Fire? I would sometimes cast it and it would take over the entire screen, and the only doubt was whether it would get all enemy wizards before time ran out. Will there still be Magic Fire? Will there be any way to counter it? Perhaps you could make it completely random, so that it could affect even the wizard who cast it and his creatures. The way it was in the original game, Magic Fire could even be used as a wall against enemy land based creatures, since it would never hurt the wizard who cast it.

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    9. Maybe airborne attacks could be separated from airborne movement. An eagle gets a swooping attack, but, say, the pegasus doesn't.

      Having to land causes some silliness if you're an eagle attacking an eagle.

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    10. I like the idea of vine walls. Reminds me of Might and Magic: Clash of Heros. Each race had a type of wall that got stronger or weaker. The Elf race had vin walls which would grow with time if i'm not mistaken https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5E4RmiqCD8

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    11. @Rufferto - there will be something similar to the magic castles and dark citadels, but even in the original game they were temporary phenomena.
      I would certainly like to have magic fire, but its spreadability and lethality are tweakable stats.

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    12. I know, sometimes they would blow up immediately after being created and sometimes they would last a few turns. But other times they would seem to last forever. I'm not complaining, that added to the "anything can happen" nature of Chaos. It's just that you said that nothing will be completely safe from anything, so I got curious about Magic Castles and Dark Citadels.

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    13. Regarding the bat/eagle scenario, if you can attack and then use your movement to take off again then that may be a balanced solution.

      For example, you can move and land to attack (but are then left vulnerable) or you can attack and then utilise your movement to take off. This would allow weaker flying creatures to effectively nag/peck at stationary or nearby creatures without having the (overpowered) issue of being able to move and attack with impunity.

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  3. I'm surprised you're putting such ideas up for debate, but I suppose it's out of respect for old fans, which is nice to see.

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  4. What about retaining invisibility? In LoC you could build tactics around using invisible pixies as scouts and thieves, and there was such excitement when, as a ten year old, my brothers and I discovered the Dungeon Things in the Slayer's Dungeon...

    And what about a Battle of the Living mode? We used to play this all the time on LoC, to change the tactics and make it a different experience...

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    1. Oh yes. Pixies carrying a bow, and the other player would start screaming 'Bug!'

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    2. one of the tactics in games like laser squad was to sneak up on people and shoot them in the back. I'd like to see this in the new game so that players can only see what their creatures can see - ie line of sight. Then you can get bats landing behind wizards and nibbling at their robes before being sat on accidentally

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    3. Of course it's Julian's call, but I don't think hidden movement (or unit facing) belongs in Chaos, at least in the "normal" arena mode. Those are Laser Squad / Lords of Chaos concepts.

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    4. But they're pretty cool concepts, no?

      I can remember the terror at turning a corner to see a demon standing there, or moving precariously through the Shadow Wood, one step at a time, only to become engaged to a giant spider you had no idea was lurking there... Line of sight makes for interesting tactics..

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    5. In the turn based tactical genre theres always games with fog of war (XCOM, rtype tactics) and others without (Final fantasy tactics, Disgaea). Both have very interesting tactics which are play differently. I suggest in the Campaign have both, some battle with it and other battle without it. And in the multiplayer mode, have it as a feature to turn on.

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    6. I also liked the Pixie in Lords of Chaos. I am not sure about using invisibility in the game yet, but I am prepared to prototype it.
      The maps and arenas in Chao Reborn will probably be too small for 'line of sight' to have much impact on game play.

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  5. It turns out that I've been hacking away at a little Chaos-inspired game/remake in my spare time, and it's quite scary (but also pleasantly reassuring) to see how many of these ideas we have in common. If you (or anyone, really) would like to fiddle around with the prototype, I'd be more than happy to oblige.

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    1. I'm sure everyone would love to see your remake - I certainly would! There's a whole load of them on http://chaosremakes.wikia.com/wiki/Chaos_Remakes_Wiki and it'd be great to add another to the list :)

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    2. Yes, I would like to look at it.

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    3. I've popped it onto the list of remakes on the wiki that Lewis Lane linked. Let me know if it misbehaves at all - didn't have a lot of time to test it after uploading...

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    4. I see in the remakes wiki 'Sorcerers' on Android has a paid version available... Julian, how do you feel about what are basically Chaos clones being sold by others?

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  6. I'm really liking this - there's elements of both Chaos and LOC in that overview.
    The flying creatures concept isn't alien on us LOC champions as flying creatures had to land to attack ground creatures. Although flying V flying was possible. Of course ground units could only attack flying units with projectiles/spells.

    I really like the special attributes listed, especially Charger units - can see how a Centaur for example could be used to good effect in this regard.

    I'd be interested to see how you develop the Law/Chaos/Neutral innate and if that translates to random spell selection. Also the terrain idea is an interesting one. Would like to see a Many Coloured Land inspired map though - I liked that one! In fact the whole terrain affect idea will be an interesting one on a game like Chaos, whilst still keeping it's root gameplay.

    Also engagement is something that was implemented in LOC (If memory serves me correctly)

    With regards special attributes - could you have things like Forest-walkers or even keep Invisibility as an attribute?

    Also, are you planning on having a 'fog of war' or not?

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    1. Invisibility is a probability, but fog of war is an improbability.

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  7. So that's what manouvre rating was for! 26 years of playing Chaos and I never worked that out!

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  8. The vampire original game, as it had quite high stats with the combination of a flying & undead attack, I'm thinking that adding soul-leech would make the creature even more unbalanced. Maybe revoke it's undead status? (in the original game there was a bitmask for a vampire's corpse, so I'm thinking that this may have been the original intention at some time).

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    1. The first sentence should start: "The vampire in the original game had quite high stats..."

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    2. Sure, but its relatively low magic resistance (5) made it a prime target for a Submission spell. Many games have been changed completely by having a Vampire switch sides. And Vampires would also be vulnerable to magic attacks, so it's not like they were invincible.

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    3. Rufferto, I'm 99% sure that in the original, whether a Subversion failed or succeeded was a straight 50/50 chance, rather than having anything to do with magic resistance. I do agree that this is one thing that needs changing, although magic resistance of 5 is actually pretty good for a creation (would be low for a wizard though).

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    4. Mullins, I don't know why, but I always thought Vampires had lower Magic Resistance than dragons. I've just checked and that is not the case, Golden Dragons have Magic Resistance of 5 as well. It's funny how after playing Chaos for over 25 years you finally get to speak to other people who love the game and see the mistakes you've been making all this time. I always assumed that Subversion had to do with Magic Resistance and I only found out that Shadow Form improved your defence a couple of days ago. Thanks for your post, mate.

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  9. Remake of one of my most played and favourite games of all time? Check.

    Jullian Gollop making it? Check.

    NO SPELL SELECTION AND CASTING PHASE? ARRRRRRGGGGHHHHHHH!!!
    *passes out with nerd rage*

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  10. I love the idea that big heavy units have a good range but move slowly and lighter units are faster but have weaker or smaller ranges.

    I played a turn based tactical game for many years and it had that concept. Heres its unit list http://manual.orionsbelt.eu/en/UnitIndex.aspx

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  11. I think going with the LoC-style system for flying creatures is the correct way to go. They are just a bit too strong in the original, they should at least need to put themselves in a bit of danger when they attack. Loving the sound of all the changes.

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  12. By the way I was thinking, a 3d game can lose alot of the chassic game. Would it be to hard to have a 2d, like in some 3d chess games you have a map of a 2d chess board or even like Battle Ogre for the PSP that you change the 3d isometric view to a top down 2d map. Yes terrain can be hard to spot, but like in the Battle of Wesnoth, you pass over the terrain and it gives you a percentage.

    This way if a play doesn't like the new improved 3d, just switch to a classic mode in 2d. This can appeal to hardcore and new players.

    Maybe too overboard? I imagine the 2d would be very simple or even be like the old ZX Spectrum Chaos.

    Or even be like lots of rogelikes with custom tile sets.

    Do you think 3d will be more appealing? In my opinion theres lots of 2d turn based tactical games that are good. I have mix thoughts if 3D is necessary or too time consuming when AI, units, mecanics are more important. Just some thoughts about game designing.

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    1. I really like the sound of the majority of the mechanics. It was interesting to read about the algorithms you designed in the original game. They make so much sense once you know.

      The spell casting stage changes are risky I would say. I think that your proposed changes will definitely alter the flavour of the game, for better or worse, and as such, I think that this should be a configurable item. Its no biggie to be configurable. Put all your favourite options in the default settings, then have a classic set of settings, etc, then a custom set of settings. Everybody will be happy. Options are awesome, and if you add enough toggles, players will be able to invent their own flavours of game themselves.

      I'm not overtly excited about polygon based characters. I'd be perfectly happy with graphics in the original bitmap style, and would be over the moon if there were a retro/modern toggle. I realize this alienates new players and its a good business decision to modernize things, but if you can, try to leave the file formats as hackable as possible and if you can add a 2D rendering mode even if there are no assets for such a mode (without hacking).

      Thanks for the blog, and thanks for putting a smile back on the 8-year-old version of me.

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    2. The question of graphics is a very important issue. First and foremost the game must be easily playable with a comfortable and easy to use interface. No 3D graphics have ever helped in this regard, I must admit, but it doesn't mean they have to hinder playability either. However, the graphics will definitely be 3D. I hope they will be sufficiently interesting and stylish to appeal to a wider audience.
      I agree that spell choosing and casting phases could be an optional feature - part of a classic mode, if you will.

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    3. There is a lot of history to this game, so touches like 'retro mode' are nice. Remakes of secret of monkey island allow user to swap between new full-audio version and retro-originals, so nice point. 3D must not get in the way but dows make it scalable - and would only see Chaos reloaded as a sort of GTA2 top-down view at best: for those with an iPhone check out the Highborn app - good hex-mapped turn-based game with nice 3D-battles realised. (I'm not on commission :) ). having 3D allows for scalability and perhaps the option to depict battles by shifting camera angles. (Front mission 3/4 also good examples). But yes, happy with 8-bit anyday, :)

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  13. Pardon my silly question, but I've never played Chaos, and actually only heard of it when looking for informations about Magic and Mayhem/Duel:the Mages War/Arcanes/however its titled in your country.

    Now, Magic and Mayhem is a game I love, probably one of my favorite game of all time (despite the fact it's been completely underrated at release). So I'm wondering, how close Chaos and M&M are ?

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    1. You have a wizard, you cast spells and summon creatures. However, the biggest difference is that Chaos is a very simple, multiplayer, turn-based game whereas Magic & Mayhem was an RTS.

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  14. Chaos was my all time favourite Spectrum game - many hours I spent with my mate trying to make him believe my dragon wasn't an illusion and the sheer joy of pulling off a purple vampire on the first cast. Incredibly excited to see this coming back! Thanks Mr Gollop!

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    1. hmmm this makes me think Chaos was very social. I suggest the Chaos Remake have a chat window, so we can taught our opponents or even bluff them ;)

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  15. Hmm. Interesting special attributes for creatures... since you mentioned suggestions, I couldn't resist thinking up a few!

    Counter: Anything with this ability automatically counterattacks against all attacks, provided it didn't attack itself on its last turn. (The latter clause is to prevent this from guaranteeing that you always get two attacks to every enemy one in a one-on-one fight.)

    Petrify: Whenever a creature with this special kills an enemy, the enemy is turned into a neutral statue, which basically just serves as a wall; statues can be attacked and destroyed.

    Exemplar: These creatures exemplify law or chaos (depending on their type, of course.) Whenever they kill an enemy, they shift the world 1% further towards that state.

    Returning: Whenever a creature with this special is killed, the caster has a chance of getting back the spell used to summon it.

    Reviving: Whenever a creature with this special is killed, it has a chance of automatically coming back from the dead in a few turns, provided nothing happens to its corpse in the interim.

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    1. Some interesting ideas there, here's some more:

      Forest-walker – is able to walk through forests without adverse effect (Elf for instance)

      Steadfast/Defender – This steadfast unit is able to withstand Charger units and receive a defence bonus against them.

      Keen sight – This unit is able to see invisible (if this ability is utilised) and masked units on the field of battle which also enables the player to see them (until the unit dies)

      Miasma - All units in close proximity are masked to the opposition player/creatures

      Inspire – This unit inspires all units in a certain radius and increases their attack stat

      Some of these could make for some interesting tactics!

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  16. Why is Chaos generally considered stronger than Lords of Chaos? LoC is my all-time favourite game!

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    1. This is a good question. The main reason is that Chaos excels as a multilayer game. This is not to say that Lords of Chaos is bad, but its pacing is a lot slower and not for people without the patience of a saint (I.e. most of us). However, I think you will find that some of the flavor of Lords of Chaos will be in Chaos Reborn, especially in the Kingdoms of Chaos mode.

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    2. Thanks Julian - can't tell you how exciting this is... We still play LoC now, after all these years. There are still new tactics and nuances to work out.

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    3. We've got Elbo Smogg and Torquemada posting. Just need Ragaril, Ibrox and Helix to make a full house.

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    4. Ragaril's dead, man, I teleported in and killed him on the second turn! But man did it ruin my stats...

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  17. Stamina bar was sort of horrible (new-XCOM style run vs move/attack system is much better) and the law/chaos balance was gone. Having said that I recently played through the entire single player campaign of LoC and thoroughly enjoyed it. Interestingly though, one of the strongest tactics in the original is by FAR the best way to kill enemy wizards in LoC also (attack with a mounted wizard firing magic bolts/lightning at enemy wizard), although the tactics involved in getting treasures out of the stages before the portals disappear were more interesting than beating the wizards in a way! I enjoyed it especially on the Island of the Eyes stage (used a demon to clear a path to chest, Vampires to swoop in and pick up treasure, thrown to a centaur on the edge of the island who then threw it *across the sea* to my awaiting wizard, who could see off any Death Vultures with his enchanted magic bow!)

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    1. The moment we discovered how to pillage Ragaril without having to go through his dungeon first... LOC really does stand up even now

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  18. Having played Chaos a but more recently on my phone, there seems to be situations especially on 1v1 where an impasse occurs and the computer casts disbelieve when it runs out of spells.
    Personally i can't wait for this. I think you have made many grown men get all child-like in anricipation!

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  19. Removing spell phase and combining into an action phase cleans things up. Am all for making the game simpler and quicker - battles should be super fast. In terms of spells chaos and law etc, you could have some basic 'preference' when setting up spell to indicate bias: law, chaos, defence, attack or normal. But otherwise let's not go crazy - chaos is fun for being random - lots of small skirmishes all feeding into a larger campaign somehow: nice

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  20. Good article here on randomness in turn-based combat: http://sinisterdesign.net/?p=1647
    I suspect the combat calcs will be revisited a few times... I remember implementing a similar straight chance version in an old Chaos remake for the Amiga. It resulted in bats killing giants a bit too often for comfort :o

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  21. Interesting article. The uncertainty of not knowing which spells your opponent has is also a big factor in Chaos. Such hidden information can result in interesting games of bluff. With respect to the combat probabilities, I would probably put a giant's toughness around 9 compared to the bats combat value of 1.

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    1. Following links from that article I came across a few interesting analyses of probability in a certain X-Com game ;) The most important lesson I learned in GameDev: strive to do what the player *expects* rather than what's mathematically correct. Maybe at odds with randomness at the heart of Chaos, which sets it apart from a lot of modern games?

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    2. Yes, with Chaos players will just have to expect the unexpected! Player expectations are an important part of design, and in the whole field of usability study and human interaction. However, I don't agree that you should just do what the player expects - I think that its more important to have a game system that has some consistency and rules which the player can respect and accept.

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  22. Does is make sense to have the Turmoil spell automatically fire off (or maybe appear in someone's spellbook) if a state of Total Chaos occurs?

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  23. "Undead - can only be killed by other under undead, magic weapons or spells"

    I'd re-think that because in the original game it could unbalance things a bit and didn't make much sense in some circumstances (eg why can't an elf fight off a zombie?). Maybe give undead creatures a strong defence bonus against living things which is negated if they are attacked by other undead or by magic?

    Another thing I'd like to see is a much larger bestiary that could be added to regularly.

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  24. "Creatures can be cast as illusions"

    Ooh, no. See, I think that's one of the things in the original Chaos that there was a real problem with. What happened is that someone would summon a dragon and the other player would go "pah, not real" and the next turn would cast disbelieve and it was (almost always) gone. I always felt it added little to the game and lead to too many annoying "disbelieve" spell phases.

    If you're going to have illusions I suggest this: illusionary creatures that are just that - they appear but can't harm or even touch anything. So you've got a wizard and he has a couple of giants guarding him and the other player is trying to think how to deal with them but, unknown to said other player, the giants aren't real and his troops could just wander through them. Rather than give an "illusion?" option on summoning there could be a specific illusion spell which allows for a range of frightening but illusionary monsters to be summoned.

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    1. Bah! Illusions are one of the high points of the original :P
      http://www.analoguediversions.com/2011/chaos/

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