Wednesday, January 2, 2013

Lords of Chaos and Chaos Reborn

I spent a little time in the last couple of weeks playing 'Lords of Chaos'. It's the first time I have played it in 22 years and it was a most interesting experience. I first tried the Spectrum version, but then settled on the Atari ST version. Here are the positive points:

  • The 'collect-em-up' aspect of the game is quite compelling. There is a lot of exploration and gathering to do, with a lot of different types of things to collect, most of which are potentially useful. It is especially delightful to find keys and chests, and ultimately the treasure you are seeking to win the game.
  • There are almost always important decisions to be made every turn, with a lot of different possibilities to consider. It is rarely boring because of this.
  • The vision system works well. Flying creatures have a great scouting ability, but not for enemy creatures hidden in forests and grass. The use of invisibility makes for interesting game play with thievery and surprise attacks. Pixies are cool.
  • The portal system is a neat way for completing the game. When it appears, the tension certainly ratchets up a few notches. A confrontation with the enemy wizards is most likely during this period, and you are often faced with the dilemma of going for the portal or trying to find that last bit of treasure before it closes.
  • The victory conditions make the game more interesting. It is not actually necessary to kill any enemy wizards to win the game. The use of victory points system is cool, because you have two main ways to get them - killing creatures and finding treasure. There is always some objective for you in every turn.
  • The RPG aspect of the game works pretty well. You are not just trying to win a battle but maximise your experience points to build your wizard for the next encounter. Improving your wizard is also quite a compelling aspect to the game.
  • There are a few interesting puzzles which often benefit from certain spells. It makes for an interesting adventure game, not just a combat game.
Now for a few downsides:
  • The pace of the game is very slow. It definitely works better as a single player game because of this. Ideally there should have been a few mutliplayer only maps which are smaller, and specially designed for quick and brutal play.
  • The logistics of the game can be overwhelming. It is often difficult to remember which creature is carrying what. There is just too much stuff to manage. Preparing potions is a time consuming and fiddly process.
  • The more interesting spells are rarely used. There is too much emphasis on creatures and buffing them up with potions and enchanted weapons.
  • Although there are a lot of creature spells, there is not much interesting variety between them. You certainly don't need them all. Some more interesting special abilities for creatures could have made things a bit more interesting.
  • The overwhelming choice of spells is not good for novice players. You need to design your wizard by choosing a bunch of spells from a big long list without knowing whats good or useful for your first adventure. The RPG aspect of the game could have worked a lot better by introducing things more gradually.
  • The AI can't really cope with the complexity of the game, which is probably not surprising. From this point of view, multiplayer games should be more interesting - if you have the time and patience to play them.
  • The stamina stat is really annoying. Your creatures run out of stamina, and they are going at half-puff for most the the rest of their existence. It just slows things down.
Overall, I would have to conclude that Lords of Chaos is a game struggling under the weight of its own ambition. Good, but not great.
For the single-player 'Kindoms of Chaos' mode in Chaos Reborn I do want to recreate some of the flavour of 'Lords of Chaos' and use some of its better aspects. So here are a few proposals:
  • There will be an exploration element at the kingdom level. You start in a randomly generated game world, consisting of hexes, where each hex represents an environment type. You can only see hexes adjacent to hexes you have already visited, so the world is gradually revealed to you as you explore. When you enter an enemy controlled hex, a battle area is generated an you will fight an enemy wizard. Some hexes may have helpful structures in them to help you in your quest to kill the Chaos King (e.g. a tower that enables you to see further, a wizard tower which acts as a respawning location).
  • Each battle will have a portal system, as in LoC. If the enemy wizard escapes through the portal he will move to another region in the game world. If your wizard escapes through the portal you return to your hex in the kingdom map with any artefacts you recovered. If you kill the enemy wizard, you gain control of that kingdom hex. If you are killed by the enemy wizard you return to the nearest friendly wizard tower in the kingdom map without any artefacts from the battle.
  • There will be artefacts in the game, but only your wizard has an inventory. Creatures with hands may gather things for you, but they go straight to your wizard (as in Magic & Mayhem). Your wizard can  have in use one item from his inventory. Changing an item in battle requires using the wizard’s action for that turn.
  • The RPG system is based on experience points which are gained for killing enemy creatures, killing enemy wizards, casting spells and collecting treasure. You spend experience points on learning new spells from any spell books you have found, and on improving your wizard’s attributes (spell list size, casting ability, attack, defence, magic resistance).
  • Your wizard's spell library consists of all the spells learned from spell books. Your wizards spell memory is the number of spells that may be taken into battle. You can choose which spells to take into battle from your spell library, up to the spell memory limit.
  • The types of artefact include:
    • Spell Books - allow you to learn a spell. You can learn a spell multiple times, in which case you may use multiple versions of it in battle.
    • Spell scrolls - add a spell to your spell list for this battle only.
    • Wands - increase your chance of casting spells (limited number of uses). Wands may be specialised (e.g. 'Wand of Chaos' only benefits chaos spells).
    • Orbs - allow casting of a particular spell, but has a limited number of uses.
    • Amulets - provide defence bonus and/or magic resistance bonus. Also has limited uses based on the number of times the effect is used.
    • Treasure - different types, worth varying amounts of experience points
    • Effect scrolls - as soon as they are read, generate some particular effect in the arena e.g. summon portal,  
    • Kingdom artefacts - some artefacts may have an effect at the kingdom level - e.g. teleport keys.
There are clearly more details to be filled in here, particularly how to make the kingdom exploration part both interesting and tactical. However, I think this is a start.

Oh yes - Happy new year everyone! Let's hope 2013 will be both productive and chaotic!



33 comments:

  1. Sounds really interesting. From the point of view of making the kingdom level strategic, perhaps if could see if a wizard is occupying a hexagon before you move into it, then maybe the direction in which you approach from could have some kind of effect, either some kind of elemental bonus from the hexagon you've moved from, or simply allowing you a free turn if he was unaware of you because you approached from "behind"?

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    1. Interesting idea. Another possibility is to make the initial deployment position in the battle area dependent on which direction you came in. You could choose to retreat from battle as soon as the portal arrives and pick more favourable direction to enter.

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  2. Happy new year Julian!
    Among all your games Lords of Chaos probably will be always my second favorite game. There's a lot of good things there. For me the most ingenious one is the way you turned isolated scenarios in a RPG . Even viewing the game for it's "cosmetical" side that 3x3 animated sprites turned it in one of the most colorful games to play in ZX.

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    1. Happy New Year Nuno. What is your first favourite game?

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    2. Well, your games always evolved over time. But even when later games like X-Com/M&M came out I still preferred LS/LOC combo. Maybe because I like very much the concept of "neutral" engines where we can load infinite independent modules. In X-Com/M&M even that gameplay/graphics progressed further the previous enjoyable feeling of endless modular engine gone.

      Between the two Laser Squad is perhaps my favorite one mainly because was the first with amazing innovations. Directional movement, the menu driven interface and the scenario feature (among other things). LOC is not very far from that and have extra things like the very nice rpg component but I give some extra points to LS for direction movement (and sight) feature. So my preference was taken just for a question of score more realism accuracy instead of gameplay simplicity.

      I understand that you maybe didn't want directional facing in LOC to give instead a board style gameplay or keeps things simpler. Also you wouldn't have for sure memory in ZX to make directional gfx for all creatures! As ST/Amiga LOC have also a lot more extra map tiles.

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  3. Happy New Year!
    Lords of Chaos (on Commodore 64) was probably my favourite game whilst growing up.
    I even recently attempted to recreate it as a learning tool to teach myself how to use Microsoft's XNA 4.0 development environment for 2D games. I never finished the line of sight or AI parts though.
    One of the strengths I think you missed was the variety of the scenarios and the progression through them. E.g. you could create your wizard for Level 1 with lots of flying creatures (like vampires) which were powerful there, but for Level 2, these were less useful since nothing could fly in the dungeon.
    I did like the potion mechanic though, collecting reagents for a temporary stat boost with the consumption mechanic limiting you from boosting already powerful creatures for too long.
    I do agree that a large proportion of the creature spells felt a bit redundant, mostly the animal types with no special abilities.

    Overall though, it was a very enjoyable game for it's time and I spent many hours playing it and lamenting that there were only 5 levels. I'm sure I still have a cassette tape somewhere with a very powerful wizard saved on it...

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    1. I am glad you got a lot out of it. Yes, the scenario design was quite good, with a really dramatic change from the first scenario to the second. There were only 5 levels because we didn't make that much money out of the game, and we had to find a better source of revenue. We went on to make UFO: Enemy Unknown, so I guess we made a good move.

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    2. Mike, I hope you can provide me later some screenshots or details of your unfinished remake for put one day in Chaos Squad website if you didn't mind. There isn't much LOC remakes so would be nice that you will finish it one day.

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    3. Julian, I remember as a 15/16 year old checking the Amiga magazines religiously for updates on UFO's progress always hoping for a release date. (How did we ever survive without the internet for up to date news?)
      Definitely a good move to work on UFO at the time, although I'm happy it appears to be time to revisit the Chaos universe again.

      Nuno, Sure I can get you some screenshots. The graphics are mostly stolen straight from the C64 version as I'm no artist and was trying more to emulate the original 8-bit game as close as possible (even down to the 16 colour palette). Let me know on here if you can't contact me through the google+ thing since I haven't used it much.

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    4. I don't use G+ myself but I noticed your mail address there. I will send a message to your hotmail (so expect it appear on spam as always lol). Thank you Mike.

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  4. Happy New Year Julian!

    One of the greatest things about Lords of Chaos was that it was malleable and you could make of it what you wanted - it had a steep learning curve, but there was so much in it that the variations were limitless. It was like having a toy box and being told to make up your own games - you could decide to limit yourselves to certain creatures and see if you could win using them; you could ban yourself from using potions or magic lightning spells; you could ban undead and try and take on the computer AI with all of their undead hordes. We did all of those things and I can still remember the details of lots of battles! The varying ways of winning made it endlessly replayable - going for treasure and trying to sneak through the portal; buffing the wizard at expense of a mighty army; sneak pixie assassins on the other wizards; letting the computer AI grow stronger than necessary so you could milk him of experience points. Perhaps it wasn't the fastest (or most chaotic?) game in the world, but it didn't have to be - it had so much depth.

    Admittedly, in retrospect, there wasn't a lot of variety in the attributes of some of the creatures... but that never stopped me putting my Gorilla spell at level 8 and trying to beat my brother's demons by giving a gorilla horde an armory of enchanted axes!

    I hope some of this encourage-the-player-to-do-stupid-things kind of play can come to Chaos Reborn!

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    1. Yes, good point. The game really did allow you to experiment with stuff. This is the way I like my games - not being forced down a linear path to be told a linear story (although this can work well too, occasionally). I can assure you there will be plenty of opportunity to do stupid experiments in Chaos Reborn (I will take some lessons from 'Magic & Mayhem' here as well).

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  5. Thank God LoC won't be left out of the equation!

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  6. HNY Jullian, Massive fan of both chaos games, they were infused with that elusive fun factor so many strive for.

    I was wondering if you had considered making the fog of war an option that can be turned on or off before a game commences?
    Playing games such as mech commander or frozen synapse it can make a massive difference to the tactics and gameplay, as much as they could be considered different modes of competition.

    Looking forward to future updates :)

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    1. I wasn't planning to put fog of war into the battles because the arenas would be pretty small and the battles relatively short. In this sense the game leans a bit more to the original Chaos. I am still debating with myself about the possibility of invisibility as an attribute, although its a slightly separate issue.

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  7. Lost many, many hours (hell, entire weekends) playing this with my cousin when I was younger.

    Possibly the funniest moment ever was when through the use of an action replay cartridge, he filled an entire building with demons that he knew my wizard was heading towards...

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  8. If you are thinking of having a spell 'deck' how about incorporating collected spells from single player into multiplayer?

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    1. This is a possibility - it could mean fighting online battles with a custom wizard built in kingdom mode, although this is somewhat open to cheating because the kingdom mode is an entirely client side game and anything generated by it can't be verified by the server.

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  9. Have you thought about whether you will use the action points system of Lords of Chaos or the simpler move once style system of chaos? :)

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    1. Definitely the move-once system. You select a creature, and then move and attack with it.

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    2. I'm glad about that - figuring out how many points to change items, etc, was always too fiddly in Laser Squad and LoC for me (figuring out distances was fine, though). Simple move 'n' do stuff is far more appealing.

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    3. Although the hilarity of seeing your mate playing Laser Squad and hearing the "babowba!" sound when he tried to step back from an exposed position because he'd miscalculated his action points... priceless. :-)

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  10. Ooh, what about the Nitro Potions from the 16-bit versions? I loved how incongruous it was having what were effectively hand grenades in a game about wizards.

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    1. Hmm.. they could be an artefact which gives you a once only, explosive ranged attack.

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  11. Hi,
    LOC buy far best game ever, still play it on the Iphone app version (would have prefered the atari or amiga version on Iphone but the speccy will do :)

    Just wondering and I know this question might be thinking too far ahead but what's the chance this new game would be as a mobile phone game. like "Words for Friends" or "Draw something" where you take your turn and the phone beeps to let the other player (on either android or iphone) know the turn has been played, this could mean you have multiple games going.
    Also, where would I buy the new game, would it be download only, if yes what site/s.
    Keep up the good work, you have been one of my hero's (Honestly, along with Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone)

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  12. Quality game, just installed Android version of the original and right back to 1985! Really looking forward to seeing the new project launch - good luck to you and your team!!

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  13. Have you played Blood Bowl, either the table top game or the recent computer game? I played against recently for the first time in decades and there's a really interesting twist on turn-based games that I'd forgotten about: if your player drops/fumbles/stumbles/etc you immediately end your turn and the other player starts their turn. It really increases the pace of the game and adds a new element of strategy - balancing what needs to be done versus doing all of your least risky plays first. Plus gives the game that vital comedy edge of there always being a chance of even the most simple thing going drastically wrong at the worst possible moment, which really was Chaos's strength for me in multiplayer. For me, any Chaos game's fun could really be measured in how much laughing was done at your opponent's expense.

    I'm not suggesting this exact mechanic would be a good fit, although could be a nice optional feature for faster-paced multiplayer.

    I think you missed one of my favourite things about Lords of Chaos which was how fun the area of effect spells were at high levels - I really enjoyed unleashed huge lakes, map-encompassing forest fires or oceans of gooey blobs.

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    1. Yes, the humour in Chaos is based on plans going wildly wrong, or freak situations which no one anticipated. I haven't played Blood Bowl, but I will give it a try. You have some good points. There will be some powerful area effect spells in Chaos Reborn - have no fear!

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  14. My God this is going to be incredible. That's all I got right now.

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  15. I could add one to the positives on your list:

    Fire is fun!

    On the subject of movement, I've become quite enamoured of the two phase movement system in XCOM: Enemy Unknown.

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  16. As a player of the original lords of chaos on the amiga it sounds like a very interesting game. Would be nice aswell, be it as an unlockable or straight off the bat if the original version could be played aswell. It's always good to look back from time to time.

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  17. someone mentioned an IOS version of lords of chaos. who makes this? i got a version but has a bug where you cant take your wizard into level 2.... so annoying..

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  18. Julian,

    Really pleased that you are working on this game, though as a LOC fan (not Chaos) I'm not sure if the Kingdoms version will do fall justice or fully capture what LOC was about.

    I've recently played the finished IOS Lords of Midnight, it is very good, almost identical to the origional but uplifted in graphics (retro) and the control interface. In my mind LOC could be recreatred in a similar way but with more levels added. I'm sure the community would help with design for new levels.

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